Friday, December 17, 2021

A conversation with Jobe Bittman about "The Book of Antitheses"

 

There's no book in my collection quite like The Book of Antitheses. I've gone through the book several times already, each time finding it completely compelling and utterly unique. If you're reading this, I would highly, highly recommend this book!

The book is split into two halves. In the first half, Jobe describes how to incorporate occult philosophy in your D&D game. For example, the book describes a method for throwing "bones" (basically little trinkets) and reading them whenever the referee would normally roll on a random encounter table. The second half is an adventure about rescuing a young woman from the clutches of Satan himself. Instead of laying out maps and dungeon keys and random encounter tables, the book uses "resonances." One half of the page is art, and the other half is a few sentences about what could happen at a given location. During the adventure, the referee is advised to only look at the art, improvising the adventure based on what they remember of what was written.

I recently had the honor of having a short chat with Jobe Bittman about his new book, the Satanic Panic, and his occult influences. Please enjoy! This was my first time doing an interview—please let me know if you'd like me to do things like this in the future!




Phill: I wanted to ask first thing—I grew up in a very Christian environment. When I was growing up, the Satanic Panic was still alive and well. I recognized a lot of the same language, same words, same logic in your book. I wanted to ask was that something you were consciously thinking of in writing [The Book of Antitheses] or was that something you were trying to invert?


Jobe: Sure, no that’s definitely something that I was thinking of at the time. I spell it out in one part—to my dismay, there’s no actual magical powers that I was able to achieve with my D&D books despite what I saw in the newspaper and on TV, so I’ve spent the last 30 years diving into the “black arts” to build an actual system and now I’m ready to share it with the world. What was your experience with it? Can I ask how old you are? Is that okay?


Phill: Oh sure! I’m thirty four. I just turned thirty four



Jobe: I’m 6̶̧̡̡̛̰̠͇̰͓̞͇̜͍̍̇̉̊̈̽́̇̓̈́̍̍̑͌6̵͚̺̙̎̆̉͌͊̐́̉́̂̚͝͝6̶̡͖̫̬͍̩̮̞̗̒͌̎͒̽͜so, yeah the Satanic Panic. Did you actually go through it? Was it still going on in Christian circles that you were in ten years later?


Phill: Oh yeah. I remember one year I went to a Christian bible summer camp—that’ll tell you a bit about me right there—and I brought along some D&D books, thinking it would be a fun activity for me and the other kids, and when the camp counselors found out about it, I got a nice sermon about inviting devils into your home through D&D… It’s definitely alive and well in Christian circles. I wouldn’t be surprised if people are still hearing about the evils of D&D.


Jobe: That’s shocking [laughter]. My own experience with it at the time was… actually it was a little bit later… my mom was always worried about my obsession with Dungeons and Dragons. One of my older step-brothers brought back a Holmes box set from college, and gave it to me. Over time I filled it up with some adventures, a couple copies of Dragon magazine, and the Erol Otus cover (I forget which version that is) Basic and Expert books. I used to design all these adventures, but I didn’t have anyone to play with. I moved around a lot, and so I ended up just playing by myself. I would make adventures and, honestly, fudge some die rolls for myself so I wouldn’t have to roll a new character over and over [laughter].


 My mom, or I guess it was my grandmother, convinced my mother that the devil had a hold on me somehow, so when I was at school one day she took it and she burned it all.


Phill: Oh my Goodness!


Jobe: Yeah, so all the things I had written from when I was about eight to… god, how old was I when she burned it… like, thirteen or something? 


Phill: Oh no! Do you mind if I talk about one of the coded sections in the book? Because that almost reminds me r̴̠̠̫̤͋̿͐͂̒̽̉͜͝͝i̸̧̛̜̯̟̬̩̱̭̒̎͗̑͛͝͝ţ̷̛̫͍̌̄̍̐̓̀͝u̶̘͑̅͝a̵̡͍̤͚͍̟̱͗̄̈͜l̸̹̈́͌̅̂̅́̚s̷̡͕̳̱̖̳̰̞̺̒ͅ ̶̺̳̬̼͔͈͂̆̐̕ẗ̷̺́̽̎̐̒̒́h̵͍̠̱̎͌͜͜͝a̵̧̛̭̤̦̤͉͍̤̓͒ͅṱ̷͎̮̝̐̔͋̃̈́́̽͝ ̷̡̦̟̹̫̕͜͝y̷̪̾̓̾͘̕o̸̝̓̉͌̓̍̌́̚̕͝u̶̡̪̜̰̭̞͔͑̔͂̚̚͝ ̴̢̬̪̂̇͗͑̒͝ŕ̷̮̤̯̯͙͖̝̓͑̃̃̈̒̓̾͝e̴̢͎̥̙̺̩̱̾͐͝ç̸͔̟̾̓̀̂̂̎̋̏̋͝o̸̞̬̥͔͖͛́̈́͂̽͐͛m̷̫͙̬̑̉̂̇̓̃̓m̶̩͙̳͕͍͙͙̄̒̚ẹ̴̝͉̮̳̠̦͉̼̆̔̆͂̓̔͝͠n̸͈̜̜͂͊̑͌d̶̮̹̣̹̜̙̞̃͒͌͆̇̾͝ ̵̫̈i̶̧̢̪̬̻̻̘̮̿̆̊͌͐̐͂̈́͝n̴̡͍̮̞̾̿ ̴̧͙̱͚̩͈̩͈͆͗̈́͌͠ţ̴̛͔̙̤̩͓̰̠̓̾͒͂̉̀̒̒͝ḥ̷̥̲̊̽̽͋e̴͇̰̳͇̓̑ ̷̡͖̬̝͕̅̀̀̋͌͘c̸͚͕̦̥̟͍͓̲̒̕ô̸̢̮̇̈́̃̍d̵̢͚͇̰̊̔̌̃̌ȅ̵̱̻̠͚̞͓̫̹̊͝ḑ̷͔̥̞̜̎̕͘͠ ̷̹̥̹̞͕͒̉s̷̟̠͔̣̱̻̩͖̀̒̆̏̉͐̎̚͝e̸̦̺̹͂̄̃̏c̵̥͓̒͊̑̈́t̵̢̼͇̰̺̟͍͚͚̙̔͆̔͐̀́͂̚i̶̢̡̤͖̠͍̯̤͛͗̊̐̈͒ö̸̘̭̣́̐͝͝n̷̻̰̬͍̦̥̟̱̋̈́͘̕͝ ̶̞̗͍̠̐o̴̢͈͒̐f̶̣̜̩̳̝̏̂͐̅ͅ ̸̢̛̼̝̥̘̙̝̙̗̉͐̔̃̿̉̑͘͘b̸̛̟̹̓̐̐̎̈́̾͋̌̉u̶̧͙̯̖̭͉͎̻̔͒͌̾̄̎̀̈̕̕r̷̬̉̇͛͋̋̇̿̈́ṅ̴̫̳͚̦i̸̛̥͉͉̜͎͕̾̒̃̋͒͐̈́ņ̶͕͇̙̩͙̳͛͆̓̔̈́̿͋̅̑̑ģ̸̮͉̮͔̥̮͛̏͗͆̎̓̿͊̚͜͜͝ ̶̡̩̹̦̩̟͝ṭ̵̡͈̝̮̱̳͑͠ḩ̷̺͍̩̥̜̥̟̾́͑͋̾e̴͔̦͋̈̇̎͘ ̵̣͖́͛̐̋̿̌̚͝c̵͈̅̾̆̅̚͘͝ḥ̴̛̭͓̭̩̒͆̈́̄͆̇̈́̀ã̵͚̺̦̞̖̳̠̤̈́͆̆͑̕͜r̸̹̲̫̜̖͔̭̱̽̈́̊̅̐͘a̵̙̘͕̐c̸̨̢̙̹̜̭̝̬͒̈̋͌́̈́͌͑͘t̸̬̙̂̌̓̈͛͠e̸̢͎̊̓̽̅͛͆r̷̞͑̈́̒̚ ̷̛͖̤̤͎̲̄̃͒̈́͋̀̽͘ş̶̗̦̙̰̫͌͒̈́̋͑͗h̵͎̫̤̠̓̌ȩ̴̧̬̟̬̱̺̼̙͒̈̐̒͌ę̸̮̯̰̝͖̰͉͑̎̄̿t̵̨͍̥̗̫̦͙͓͉͇͐̑̐̃̏ş̷̨̛̦̪̫͍̊̈́̔̀̿̓̐̅͠ͅ.̷̨̰̯̭̰͔̩͇̌ ̷̙̘͂͋̈́Ŵ̴͓͖̭͍͊̉̊̒͋̍͠͠a̷̧̡͎͌̓̒͗̈́̅̇͑̈́͘s̴̨̳̦̱̝̪̎̀̑͂̇͘͘͘͝ ̴̞̝͓̝̟͈̐͑͋t̴͚̤̠̙̱̤̐̇̊̊̒̇̆̾́̏h̸͕͗̆̈́̔̅͂̚̚à̷̙͕͓̺͙͂̉̍̉̈̚̚t̷̞̎̋̍̒̊̑́̃͜.̷̛̛̞͍̟̫͈̀̔̊̚.̵̨̱̦̠̻̠̦̪̼̰̈́̍.̶̘̣͕̦̥́̉̿̆̆


Jobe:Ỳ̶̡̦͚̦͈̯̖̩̫̳̳̥̅͌̍̆̈̈́͌̏̏͒̃͌͘͠e̸̘̪̦̖͎͉̖͋͊̇͂̊́̇̅͂̌̐͋͂͝͝ä̷̭̣̺̜̗́̈h̶̢̠̠̯̯̥̐̂̈́̽̑̂̎́̽͐̐̄͐̄͜ͅ ̵̨̥͙͛̎̎̋̔̈́̂̆͂̚w̸̝̰̬̺͈͖̱̫̼͑́͗̓̃̉̌ȇ̶̹̬̫̺̤̪͗̆͘ ̷̜̈́̿̅ċ̸̢̜͍̦͕̥͙̘̟͎͙̥͙͑̓͂̈́̉͊́̏̂͋̽͜a̴̲̱̋̋̽̅̃̒̾̒̂͐̔̂̚̕͠ṇ̸̨͈̻̭͖͍̣̩̠̹̣̲̫͋ ̴̧̯͉̤͔̝̞͎͕̲͇̱͉̇͗̒̀́̇̌̈́͆̕t̸̮̮̯̝͚͈̀ą̴̙̪̼̠̥̘̮̐̅l̶̡͕̰͖̋͗͗͐̽͂́̀̀̅̊͠k̶̢͍̹͎̜̩̖̳͉̜͙̻͕͠ͅ ̴̢͙͔̦̫̺̬̭̻̻̰̞͈͕̈́͛̍͛̉͋̀͂̔̌͒͐͝a̷̢͚̝̥͚̪̮͉̥̠̥͑̈̀́̋̿͑̐̏̽͒̚͜ͅb̸̡̛̜̥̆̂̈͐̽̇́͗́̾͝o̶̟̪̐̌̄̎̄̎̃͌̆́͋̉̐̕͠ù̷̡͓̗͚̼̯̩͉̜̬̱͓͍̒̆͜͜t̸̡̙̙͇̯̩̞̗̗͈́̽̅̊̓͝͠ͅ ̶̛̬̾̿̌̎̈͝i̷̢̜̪̻̯̲̮̳͖͔͋͛̃̍̌͌̈́̐͜͝t̴͖̜͈͔̏̄̌̈́̒̐̊́͑̊̒͘ ̶̡͓̱͇̭̝̈́̅̍̅̚͜ṣ̷̲͙͎͇͕̘̻͎̤̦͐͋̀̐̿̍̐̆̈́o̷̧̢̲͈͈̫̭̩̭̖͂̈́̏̋̀͛͆̃͠m̷̢̞͈͚̥͔͖͉͙̖͂̈́̈́̊͊͆ē̷̮̦͋̈́͆͒͗̐̌́̇͋̎͆̇͠w̵̨̛̛̦̞͉̘̘̰̩̯̜̖͇̳̆̏͒̃́̀͊̀ĥ̷͉̱̜̞̬̝̐͑̒̍͛̀͜͝͝ͅà̶̡̜̪͖͆͂̈͛̚͜t̵̪̄͊̕͜,̷͚̦͊̾̃̕͜ ̴̨͓̜̥̯̱̤̪̬̜̣͉̭̘̯̇̄́̌͋̿͂̎̅̏̀̐̈́͊̌I̸̢̨̞̭͇͊̔̿̑̌̈́͠ ̷̦͕̩̣̻͖͍͈̿̎d̵̤͈̞̤̤̺͖͒̕ǫ̴̪̰̀̐̔̾͌͝n̷̨̨̧͎̻͓̥̭͙͉͓̑̓̈́͐̾̓̈̉̒̂͘ͅ'̸̢̢̛̯̙̗̱͉̳͈̖͔̲̎̽̒̈̍͘̚͜͠t̸̛͙͎͙͉̙̫̅̋͐̄̇͐̿̇̚ ̶̢͎̫̻̠͙͙̜̲̑̈́͊̆̂̈́͆̿̽͛͜͝w̴̱̮̻̜͈̝͎̆̎͒̒̓̽͜à̸͈̱̮̪n̶̳̱̟̹̫̆̌̎͌̆̕͝ͅt̸̞̞̱͍̤̙̦̠̻̹̃͗̃͗̽͘ ̵̥̘̱̞̺̳̲̩̪̗̝̐͆̎̋̾̿͗̌͘t̸̨̘̞͉̱̣̩̯̞̘̍̀̍̉́͑̄̅̐͗̊̒ö̴̘̦̲̞̦͙̣͇͕̳̖̬̱̯́̓̇̈́ ̴̪͖͉͚̠̦̊̽̀̎̔͌̂̈̐̒̚̕͜͠͝͠r̷̢̗̻̟̳̰̗͋̑̋͘̚ę̶͈͉̪̖̞̣͚͎̲̼̰̺͎̂v̶͔̹͌̊͒͋͆͌̈́̏̓̀͋̈́͗̇ę̶͔̜̞̥̬͉̻͒͊̾̎̊̄̽̌̋̈́͝͝ͅã̷̦̦͔͙̪̲͚̅̃̈́̎̐̍͜l̸̢̧̨̺̙̯̹̺̦͓͎̳̒̒̒̈́̄̔̀͒̄̋̓̐͘͜͝ͅ ̴̗̼̪̙̳̫̝̉͋̃̑̑̇̅ẻ̵̙̬̼̮͔͉͇͙̩̏͂̎̏͂͌͋̎̈́̏̈́̚̚͝v̷͔̻̝̫̭̰̰̬̤̼͋̏̐̏̓͂́͌̿̊̓́̕͝e̵̡̟̠̬̮̩͓̜͇̝̺͙̱̱͂̓̽̌̓ŗ̸̧̡͖͓̖̠̰̭͉̫̯̱̣̓͊̈̓̏̌̓̑́̂̚ÿ̵̨̺̗̟̘̥̠̟͚̗̩́͛̆̑̈́̈́͝ͅẗ̵̛͇̞́̾͗̐̿̉̕̚̕h̵̨̛͓̟͙̤̳̙̹͈͖̙̜̋̃̇̋̂̾i̴̛̪̮̬̫̦̙̮̫̎̽͗̂̐͝ņ̷̧̛̛̘̦͕̺̩̩͍̼̲̜̤̓̄͑̍͒͆͑̓̉͒͘͜͠͝ͅg̷͉͎͛̈̅̈́́͂̎́̇̿͑̋̈́̆͝.̶̧̨̹͉̝͇̱̩͕͈̇̍̃̋̓̍̃̄͝.̵͚̙̰̤̀̽̿̑͒̀͝ͅ.̷͍̥͈̠͓̠͂͑͒͑ ̷̨̭̣̮̝͓̹̫̘̟̲̯͕́͑͌͊͘̕I̶̡̳̯͖͎͕͖̮̹̪͈͎͛͆̋̀̉̎͌̎̾̕͜͝ ̶̡̫̳̬̞̥̖̖̦͕͖̔̔̓̌̏́̊̀̀͂̌̓̂̋͜͝k̶̢̡̻̭̥̹͎̳͈͎̜͇̤͙͋͝į̵̧̢̡͔͚̱̩̫͓̬̻̘̲̮̄̋̊̑̒̈͘͝ṉ̵̳̙̝̓̈d̶̳̗̹̝͔̝̪͓̺̺̗̏́͑̎̾̃͆̈́̃̓͘͝ ̸̡̢̫̲͓̥͓̦͈̃̍̆̔̓̏͛̑́͗͝͝͠o̵̧̭͍̺͉̫͖̮̜̖͔̰̓̈́̅͆̌͜f̵̢̘͙̹͈̜͍̒͑̄̂̀ͅ ̷̝̪̭͍̐́̿̉̑͛̈̌͌̓͌̚͝͝ͅw̸̨̧͖̻̣̬̮̾̍̏͗̾͜ą̷̮͍͖̼͕̜͙̻͖̳̗̙̔̕͜n̴̨͕͕͖̻̳̦̬̣̤͉̯̩͘ͅt̴͙͈͑̈́͆̊͝ ̶̡̝̪̦̃̓̒̓̕ṭ̶̡͔̖͚̟̅̒́͗̈́͂̂̆̆o̷͎̖̤̣̬̲̤̤͉͎͗̂ͅ.̴̨̛̣̝̗̣̭̣̗̯̪̮̭̘͔̒̒̀̓̀͂͋̈́͂̒͘͝.̸̼̩̗̘͙́͋͋̈̓̉̔̃.̴̡̣̥̺̌͌̉̆̐̈́̒͂̅̃̋͛̃̚͠




[Some further paragraphs on this subject have been removed by the editor to protect the eternal soul of the reader]


Phill: Let me switch gears a little bit. One of the things that really interested me about the book was the resonances section. It’s not quite a random encounter table, it’s not quite a timeline, it’s none of those and all of those. How did that evolve as a concept? It’s so different!


Jobe: Sure, so I wanted to make a system that someone could follow to run games the way I run them. I do a lot of extemporaneous, off-the-cuff type games. When I was starting out—or re-starting out—in 2008 when I got back into D&D (I got back in with fourth edition), I would spend hours and hours prepping. Hours more than game time, actually. It was fine at the time, but after a while I developed a looser style.


Phill: Sure, sure


Jobe: So the idea with the resonances was to kind of force people into trying to run a game in that style. I mean the whole book is about, you know, the fictional universe is real somewhere outside of us… or a form of this. I call it “Shadow Earth” in the book, so I wanted people to pull those things from this other universe. Or maybe it’s just a handy way to reference your own subconscious, you know what I mean?


The random table… I mean it is kind of a random table… there’s instruction near the beginning of the resonances that you could maybe use a pendulum and pick one if you couldn’t come up with something, but the intent with that is to read it, look at the art, and when you run the game, just look at the piece of art in front of you. Maybe you might remember snippets of what I said, or maybe you’ll remember snippets of a TV show, or some other idea that you were thinking about while you were washing the dishes…


Phill: [laughter] Sure, yeah the whole section reminded me of Italian Giallo films, or Argento—that feeling of heightened emotionality. Was that something you were going for?


Jobe: Uh, I guess so… really what I was doing was transcribing the things that would come to me in my meditations when I was trying to visualize my own Shadow Earth. Definitely horror films would be a big inspiration for me. An influence.





Phill: If someone was going to incorporate resonances for their own in a different module, how would you recommend developing it? Did you start with the image and then add the words? Or did the words just come through playing and then the images were added later? 


Jobe: Yeah, the words came first, and then I worked with the artist. I basically said, read this, put it away, don’t look at it again, and then create a piece of art that’s kind of like those old 70’s... You know Star Wars posters or something where you have like a… There’s probably a word for this style of poster where you have little scenes all over. References from the story line, basically.


When I re-read the book again once I got the print copy, I did think about that. I never really mention in the book what you’re supposed to do without my book. I don’t think I did, at least. The intent was to just find a piece of art, scribble your own little picture or something that you want. There is stuff in the book about using different classical fine artists with conceptions of hell and heaven and stuff like that to pull out ideas.


The other thing would be, if you’re working with your Shadow Earth, you might not even need a picture. If it’s not a pre-printed product, you can just pull it from the aether or from the “creature in the mist.”


Phill: Sure, that method you describe in the book of casting “bones,” I think is a really good way to jumpstart the imagination.


Jobe: Yeah, it takes a little bit of getting used to. I started out doing that at some game cons, and you gotta practice a little bit. At first I would sit there and just kind of stare and go, “Okay, uh… uh… uh… uh…. What? What does this mean?” It would kind of drag the game to a halt for a second, but the more you do it, the easier it is. You can throw it, and just go “Oh, of course, that’s exactly what Bosephus would do.” Or this particular villain, I guess. 


Phill: For me, I use a lot of tarot cards in my game prep, and it uses a lot of the same “muscles” as seeing shapes in a cloud. At least that’s how I think of it.


Jobe: Right, definitely.


Phill: For a lot of the occult stuff [in the book], it seems like it’s really influenced by Spare and Chaos Magick…


Jobe: Yeah, just to add on to that, I’m a real fan of Crowley’s writing. I’ve got a lot of [Israel] Regardie… I’m just staring at my bookshelf now… And I really like Ramsey Dukes. On the Weird studies podcast, one other person—I think it was Phil Ford—mentioned Ramsey Dukes whom I had never heard of. I think I have all of his books now. They’re really good.


Phill: Oh! I’m going to have to check that out! I think I’m in the same boat as a lot of people who are going to pick [The book of Antitheses] up—people who are interested in Dungeons and Dragons, but always kind of had an interest in the occult and would like to learn more. Is there a book you would recommend as a “next step” for people who would like to learn more after reading your book?


Jobe: Yeah, that’s a good question. Let’s see… probably my go-to—a book I really like that came out a couple years ago was High Magick by Damien Echols. That’s a really good introduction to really get your feet wet into magick I think. Are you familiar with Damien Echols?


Phill: Ah no, not at all


Jobe: He was one of the West Memphis Three. He was one of these teenagers put on death row for killing a kid based on having drawn all these horror-themed drawings and listening to heavy metal.


Phill: Oh yeah, I do remember that. And then he got really into magick while he was incarcerated?


Jobe: Right, yeah. That case was in…let’s see, when was it…sometime in the 90’s. Yeah, ‘96. But yeah, he got really into magick and he’s a free man now. He was released by DNA evidence, and he credits magick to keeping him sane and alive through this entire ordeal.


I actually had the pleasure of seeing him speak in person when the book was launched. I got a signed copy at the Mercury music venue in Seattle. Eddie Veder was there; I guess they were buddies or something. So Eddie Veder opened up and played a couple of songs, and then Damien Echols came out. It was really cool.


Phill: Oh! That’s Awesome!


Jobe: He’s got a new book, I haven’t picked it up yet. It’s been out for more than a year I think. I should probably pick it up. It’s called Angels and Devils or something like that… or Angels and Demons. But definitely—if someone likes my book, and they’re not already in the occult and want to learn more, I would highly suggest High Magick by Damien Echols.


Phill: Oh, thank you for the suggestion! I’m definitely going to have to check that out. If I may ask one more, this book is so intensely spiritual, but [James] Raggi and other Lamentations of the Flame Princess products have kind of a… H. P. Lovecraft atheistic sense to them. Did you find that it complimented the spirituality of your work or was it something that you almost had to fight against?


Jobe: No, I don’t think I fought against it, really. The spiritual aspect of the book… it sounds like you’re picking up on it—that maybe demons and the over-the-top things that are happening in the book are just a vehicle for these ideas. It’s just a way to entice someone. If someone at the game store picks up this book and it’s filled with demons and pregnant children eating humans and sodomy nuns and it’s like “what the hell am I looking at? I gotta take this home and show somebody.”


Phill: [Laughter]


 Jobe: I made some allusions to angels, demons being the same thing. I didn’t really feel like I was fighting against it. I kind of “rebelled” in it a bit, and so did the artist. I did feel bad about some parts of it. For example, I’ve gone back and forth with [James] Raggi about this, but making the cardinal—or bishop? I don’t have the book in front of me, I dunno, the religious figure—kind of making him the villain of the whole thing. I had some real reservations about that because I thought it was too clichéd, ya know? It’s just been overdone. Just kind of ridiculous. But, due to the other things that are kind of woven through the text, I didn’t have a choice other than to do it that way. 


With the hidden text, with the sigils that are throughout the whole book, basically the entire book is a hypersigil of my own will that I’m trying to put out into the world. I want to free people. The way that everything is together, that was a puzzle piece that couldn’t fit in any other way, unfortunately. That’s the way it had to go down.


Phill: Oh sure, sure. I was going to ask about the hypersigil aspect—Grant Morrison describes The Invisibles as a hypersigil. You feel that [The Book of Antitheses] is going for the same goal?


Jobe: It is… I will admit it is a hypersigil. In a way, all works of art really are hypersigil. I guess it would be the amount of intent that was behind it as you were creating it. I was influenced by some of those talks by Grant Morrison wich are very good. And then Promethea—that Alan Moore book is amazing. Those are two people that influenced me to move towards a hypersigil with this.


A lot of the stuff in [the book]—I’ve got a lot of opposing forces that are holding each other in balance. I dunno. I mean, basically I’ve described it before as a metaphysical nuclear missile aimed at the heart of American culture.


Phill: [Laughter] Nice! Oh, I love that. I think that’s a great note to go out on! Hey, thank you so much for sitting down to do this. I really appreciate it!


Jobe: Yeah man, any time! It was wonderful talking to you.


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